See answer at end!

On Mon, 24 Jul 95 16:12:40 PDT,

rcal…@mindscape.com  <rcal…@mindscape.com> wrote:
>     Dear Doctor,

>     You said:
>     "I don’t like circumcision any better than you do…"
>     You also said:
>     "Then I do a circumcision …  to the best of my ability. "

>     It really seems to me that you are caught in a bind: you don’t like
>     circumcisions, and yet you are part of a society that endorses it as a
>     standard ritual of child-birth.  

I clearly don’t endorse it as a standard ritual of childbirth. I
participate in it.  

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>     It’s the same situation I’m in.  I’m not a doctor,  and my work has
>     nothing to do with medicine, but I have a son and that puts me in the
>     middle of it.

>     There are only two ways to proceed, either work for change and for
>     your moral stance, or ignore your feelings and beliefs and go with the
>     status quo.  Saying that it’s unnecessary is one thing, but maybe
>     those parents would really believe you if you didn’t then go ahead and
>     perform the surgery afterwards.  Actions speak louder than words.

>     You asked what you should do, and I think the answer is obvious from
>     what you have said:

>     "the only discernible medical benefit … is tenuous and remote. "
>     "the possible problems … are real and inescapable. "
>     "the procedure is NOT NECESSARY."

>     Don’t do any more circumcisions.  

>     I understand that you may view this as over-simplistic, and that you
>     may think that I don’t know what all you would have to go through if
>     you stopped.  Tell me.
>     I do know that a *lot* of people seem to really get hot about this
>     issue.  Parents get upset when it is suggested that their newborn
>     shouldn’t be exposed to unnecessary pain and trauma.  Grown men get
>     upset when it is suggested that their penis has been mutilated, and
>     they might not have as much sexual pleasure as they could.  Doctors
>     get upset when it is suggested that one might not want to have a son
>     circumcised (I don’t understand why, maybe you can explain it to me.)

>     Saying that you don’t believe in circumcision and then performing it
>     anyway … that’s  just wrong, and I’m pretty sure you know it.  

>     Should you refuse the procedure and make them go to another doctor?  

>     What’s wrong with that?  I guess that it’s still going on … and
>     that’s bad, but at least you aren’t making it easy to do.  Would you
>     do a circumcision that was brought to you from another doctor who
>     refused?

>     Circumcision isn’t just unnecessary, it’s wrong.  It’s a permanent
>     alteration done to an infant that causes immediate and long-lasting
>     harm.  Under no other circumstances would anyone think that
>     unnecessary surgery would be okay to perform on an unconsenting
>     patient.  I don’t think you would tattoo a child just because the
>     parents asked.

>     And if the child grows up, and wants it cut off, fine, it’s his
>     body–his decision.  

>     Sincerely,

>     Robert W. Calfee

>     P.S.  You didn’t like what Kalel29 posted about pain during
>     circumcision.  Some doctors have been clinging to the ridiculous
>     notion that there is no pain if the surgery is done in infancy.  I
>     think that’s what those pain posts were about.  Are you of the opinion
>     that what Kalel29 suggested (infants passing out from the pain) is
>     impossible?  

He didn’t say passing out, he said they were comatose.  If he knows what
that means, he wouldn’t make such a ridiculous claim.  If he doesn’t then
he doesn’t know what he is talking about, does he?  How can you trust his
interpretation of medical literature if he won’t even look up the words he
doesn’t understand?

                   I have seen it posted that there are over 120 different

>     studies about pain during circumcision.  I’m sure Kalel29 didn’t want
>     to post all 120 odd studies, and only chose a few.  How would you
>     interpret these studies?  

Robert,

I _know_ that a lidocaine infiltration of the dorsal nerves of the penis
totally blocks penile pain.  I’ve done it on injured men and boys to allow
me to suture their injuries.  I know that adding sodium bicabinate solution
to the lidocaine greatly reduces the pain of injection.  I think it’s
barbarian to do any surgical procedure without appropriate anesthesia.  And
I wonder where these people posting here on m.k.p. are seeing all the
neonates kicking and screaming?  

Most of the 120 studies advocate using proper anesthesia!

And to the main gist of your post, "Why do I participate in this?"

I don’t stop doing circumcisions for the same reason I don’t stop treating
tobacco users for lung and heart disease, and alcohol users for liver
disease.  And for the same reason I don’t stop treating overeaters and fat
eaters for obesity and diabetes and heart disease.  

Just because people don’t make what I consider to be wise decisions does
not mean I abandon them to seek care elsewhere.  

If I thought circumcision were wrong or had some significant adverse  
effect, it would be different.  We’re not talking about a life and death
decision here, we’re talking about a statistically safe procedure with a
very small economic impact but a bigger social impact and a very small
amout of controversy.  

Refusing this procedure would send my patients away, and I won’t accept
that.  I won’t break the doctor patient-relationship for something this
trivial.  My patients trust me and I know many of them quite well.  I
rejoice with them, especially when a baby comes through a difficult
delivery.  I cry with them in relief after a successful resucitation of a
newborn.  And I cry in pain and grief after one one my families suffers a
tragedy.  

There are many things that can be changed for the better in our society.  
I choose to pick my battles where they will do some good.  I don’t believe
circumcision is right or wrong.  I think it is smart or not so smart and
very few will ever know the difference in the decision made.  I will not
sacrifice my patients in the Holy War that the anti-circumcisiom people
have declared.  

PS: For those of you who think I need more patients to make more money,
    WRONG!  I have too many already.)

Bill

Board Certified Family Practice
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*******************************

Robin,

My guess would be that they were checking the brain stem.  But,
it is only a guess.

Cool picture!!  I think that is great!  I had so many people laugh
at me when I framed my ultrasound picture and put it on the mantle.
I guess it is something that only a mother can understand!

Florence
—
Florence Porter
Mom to Mackenzie John (Mack) – 11/12/94
        six weeks early, but healthy as a horse!

I am 23 and my husband is 27 and we are expecting our first child on September
24th.  This was a planned pregnancy, or in other words, we weren’t preventing
anything from happening.

I haven’t really gotten any rude remarks like some of you have I think because
my mother had me when she was 20 and my grandmother had my father when she was
20, so it would seem I waited to become a mother.

The only comments I’ve really gotten were along the lines of "We knew this was
going to happen" or "I just had a feeling".  These really bothered me because
we didn’t tell anyone we were trying at all, but now every body says they knew
we were.

I did expect the "you’re too young" comment from a lot of people including
some of my various family members, but I haven’t gotten any.  Everybody thinks
its the greatest thing in the world.

Okay, kind of on the subject of comments, my husband and I just found out that
we are having a girl.  I had the feeling it was a boy and so did a lot of my
family.  I’ve told my mother and her mother, and both of them refuse to
believe that the ultrasound tech was right.  They keep calling my daughter
things like "junior" and other nicknames referring to a boy.  I’ve told them
that we know definitly that it is a girl, but they are so stupid and stubborn
that I wish I had never told them now.

Has anyone else had this problem?  They are bugging me half to death every
time I talk to them!

Jennifer and Sionainn Miles
due 9-24-95

Greetings to anyone who remembers me!

Due to the fact that I did not go online for a LONG TIME, I know I lost
some e-mail messages. If anyone was trying to reach me, try again, I’m
back!

Update for anyone who is curious: We are happy to announce that we had a
healthy baby girl on June 6.  Carol Ann was born at 9 lbs. 2 1/2 ozs. (She
has *long* legs and arms like her 6’3" daddy.) By the time I got to my due
date (June 5) my blood pressure was 150/90 on some fairly heavy doses of
medication … and my feet had started to swell. Concerned that I might
deteriorate further if I postponed, I was checked in for an elective
induction (very different from the frantic drive we had been anticipating
for 9 months, we had dinner and calmly drove to the hospital and I walked
up to the maternity admissions desk and announced my arrival). Wasn’t
exactly a low tech experience, but I cannot praise the hospital staff
enough for taking excellent care of me. Carol Ann was born at 7:01 pm the
next day.  Since her delivery my blood pressure has moderated and I am not
on medication, so I may have had a genuine case of pregnancy induced
hypertension.

General comment on induction: it’s nasty
Epidurals … a wonderful invention
Best possible sight: my wonderful, sweet, nurturing husband holding his
baby daughter for the first time … with a look of total enchanment on
his face … bending over the warming table saying "Can’t we turn off
these lights, they are too bright for her eyes."

I am just grateful to God for a beautiful, healthy little girl after a
pregnancy that included a hemorrage at 7 weeks and having my blood
pressure taken a million times.

If anyone has any questions about induction or hypertension I would be
happy to talk … please e-mail me directly.
Robin Brown
RBrown5…@aol.com

Baby Brown due 6/5/95

I found some exercises in the Spring/Summer issue of "Fit Pregnancy", a
new magazine from Shape. My OB looked them over (even tried a few) and
said "Go for it!"
Of these exercises, I have found that the best for me are the pool
exercises or anything else that I could do in the pool. During the
morning-sickness phase, the cool water was a wonderful relief to the HOT
Arizona sun (it sure beat walking!) Now that I am over the m.s., the
bouyancy is great on lower backache! Any stretches done in the water feel
absolutely wonderful!!
Christy (due Dec. 25)

In article <3v77i8$…@ansel.intersource.com>,
kaw…@ansel.intersource.com says…

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>Hi all!  I’ve been reading this newsgroup while we
>were trying to have a second child, and occasionally
>responding to some post, without ever really
>introducing myself.  Now I test positive!! and I
>know I’ll be hanging out here! so:

>My name is Karen A. Wyle; I have an almost-4 daughter;
>we’ve been trying for 1 year 7 months; I’m just about 40,
>and hoping all goes smoothly….

>I live in Bloomington, Indiana, and would love to hear from
>other expecting parents in the area!

>Til my next 2 cents —
>–
>Karen A. Wyle  |        –"A republic, sir,
>                       |            if you can keep it."
>                       |                   –Benjamin Franklin

Just wanted to say "Congratulations"!!!!!!!
Best wishes to you all for a healthy pregnancy and
happy baby

Amy (mom to Alex 5/12/95)

O.k. so much about the metal detectors.
I am concered about the air pressure, the quality of air near the end of
the airplane trip, etc., etc.. What about the fabled spraying of
pesticides in the plance just before lading? I have read that female
flight attendents suffer a high incidence of miscarriages.
Please prove me wrong, Im scheduled for a plane trip in Sept.95.

Angie:)

(due + or – in Feb 20, 1996)
x

 I am mum to Benjamin Rhys (b. 7/8/94)and a member of the NCT in Great
Britain (National Childbirth Trust – a registered charity which gives
information and counselling to women during pregnancy and after birth).
I am also part of a team who produce a quarterly newsletter for local
members in Basingstoke, Hampshire.

I have just discovered the delights of the Internet and I thought it
would be fun to give our newsletter a bit of an international flavour.

The thing our members love reading about most of all is other womens’
birthing experiences. If anyone would like to share their experience
(happy or sad) and do not object to me reproducing their words
(giving a full acknowledgement or anonymity, whichever you
prefer), please E mail direct to me. I would love to hear from you.

Also, I wanted to do an article on mums and dads first thoughts when
they saw their baby. It doesn’t matter how whacky your first thought
was – mine was "he’s all mouth and no head" quickly followed by "I feel
sick" – not very romantic after 10 months of imagining the moment would
be all emotional and romantic!!    

Also thanks to the many people who directed me to this newsgroup when I
first posted this message in alt.support.breastfeeding – I’m very new
to the Internet and I had no idea misc.kids.pregnancy existed. My poor
husband doesn’t get a look in on the Internet as I’m always on it now
reading this newsgroup!!

 Many thanks–
______________________________________________________ Caroline Woolmer
  EMail carol…@woolmer.demon.co.uk                                    
     Mail sent via Demon Internet          
______________________________________________________

I was home for lunch today and caught the end of the Donahue show.  The
topic was parenting in the 90′s, pretty interesting, I wish I could have
caught the whole thing.  Anyway, a lady in the audience asked about
testing for the b-strep infection, as her son almost died after he was
born, and she was never tested.  The doctor on the show said that there
was a conference going on right now about that very subject, and the
recommendation is to test during weeks 25-37 by doing a CERVICAL culture.
 Doesn’t this contradict what I’ve been reading on this group?  From what
I’ve read so far, they should do a vaginal/rectal culture as late as
possible.  This doctor also said that the pediatricians were for the
testing, but OB’s are reluctant to do it.  Why would an OB be reluctant
to do a test that is so important to the health of the baby?  I plan to
ask my OB about this on my next visit, but am posting out of total
confusion!

Denise and peanut (2/1/96)